Melanie
Welcome to the Monday Morning Marketing Podcast for all decision makers and action takers. Take it away, Esther.
Esther
And welcome back to another episode of the Monday Morning Marketing Podcast. Today we're talking accessibility and marketing, and we're joined by Tania Gerard. Welcome, Tania.
Tania
Hi. Really excited to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
Esther
We're very excited to have you here because accessibility is something that gets talked a lot about, but nobody really knows how to go about doing it or how to make sure they're not leaving people out or going to one extreme or the other. Tell us, first of all, what got you interested in accessibility?
Tania
So my background is digital marketing. So I was doing it for about eight years with ADHD, with autism. So I was diagnosed with ADHD as a child and then autism at 25. So the very short story, if I can, with ADHD and autism, I went through, went right up to the career, right to head of digital and went through horrific burnout, depression, social anxiety. So had a choice. So took a step back from my career, learnt about my ADHD and autism, got some qualifications in accessibility, and then put it in the world and just was like, does anyone want to learn about it? Like, this is my qualifications, this is lived experience. This is the digital marketing experience. I know a thing or two about a thing or two. Do you want to learn about it? And then the BBC picks it up in month three and then it just skyrocketed. So the reason why I went into accessibility in the first place is because I struggled as a neurodiversion employee in the workplace, in the creative industry, where there was no neurodiversity training. There was no talk about accessible marketing, inclusive messaging. There was absolutely nothing. I didn't see myself as an audience in the marketing we were creating. There was no space to have a voice either. So I created a service where past time you could have used it or past time you could have said to her employer, this woman exists, this is what she's doing. I think it'd be great for the client projects, the team understanding, the leadership understanding of who I am and why I do things that I do and some tools and communication preferences, etc. So it's come from a place of pain. And it's generally become my life purpose now, helping people understand the strengths of inclusive messaging, which I'll explain a little bit more about what the heck it is in this interview. But it's been really enriching. I've met so many amazing people who have had really similar experiences to me. So it's been very, very validating the work. And I'm just so excited because I get the opportunity of speaking to lovely people like you as well. So really honored to be here. But yeah, it's been an incredible, incredible journey so far. And it's such an important thing to do in your marketing as well. So, yeah.
Melanie
So the barriers that people who are neurodivergent are finding, how would you describe them so that our listeners and viewers understand what you need to bridge as a gap?
Tania
So I would say one of the biggest barriers, especially as a neurodiversion employee in the workplace, is the fear of judgment. So many people aren't actually telling their employer, first and foremost, that I have this, I have a disability, or they're not being able to have that voice, that safe space in the workplace to say, oh, I've found this tool and this can really help me with my understanding of my workload, but this This can also help the team overall. This can also help the company overall. So collaborative. I think it's that fear of judgment. It's not being able to have your voice. And then the marketing side, the barriers in marketing is the actual understanding of content. So when I mean that, I mean imagine looking at a website and you click on it first load and there's a load of flashing images. There's massive blocks of text. There's links that just say, Click here. A screen reader will literally... It's all gobbledygook on a screen reader, for example. So if there's images and there isn't anything what we call alt text, which is basically a really simple description of what the image is. So if it's an orange tabby cat on a table, the alt text would say orange tabby cat on a table.
If it's in a busy cafe or anything and there's a load of books behind, you don't have say every single book title. It's not that descriptive. But it's just to give people with screen readers an idea of what the image actually is, the context. And it's also really good for SEO as well, by the way. Because it comes in search results. But I would say, yes, so it's like big blocks of text instead of bullet points, it's the links that aren't descriptive. So for instance, with the click here, like I mentioned, Instead of Click Here, it could be find out more about marketing report 2025. So it's making that user journey basically easier for all abilities, regardless of whether they're neurodiversion or need screen readers or deaf or blind. It's making that journey easy from awareness to purchase or awareness to an actual CTA, like fill in a form or email or book a call. So it's just, yeah, it's all about the user journey, making it easier, making those barriers down. So basically everyone can engage with your marketing.
Melanie
Yeah, cool.
Esther
Okay. You mentioned there about employees feeling a bit of fear or stigma attached to speaking out and saying, telling their employers. Now, as an employer, I need my employees to tell me if they have anything additional that they need help with or support with, or if there would be a reason why something would trigger them or something would make it incapable for them to work. I mean, as an employer, it seems-.
Tania
Pretty damn important.
Esther
Exactly. So how can employers open that gate to have the employees come and say, because you can't put it on the intake form. You can't put it on your CV or something, saying, oh, well, you probably could if you wanted to. But as an employer, we can't discriminate over age, we can't discriminate over gender. We can't discriminate over anything. So why would people think that it would be discriminatory if they don't come forward and say, oh, by the way, I have autism, ADHD, I'm blind, I'm colour-blind. All these things, the colour-blindness one. I'm a web designer, so I need to know if the person I'm hiring can tell a difference in these colors.
Tania
So there's a couple What are the sides to that? So externally, we'll start with. So, for example, job descriptions. If you're creating a job description, you need to make sure it's not a block of text again. You know, bullet points, section different things. What is the company? If you can, if it's not through a head-hunter or a recruiter or anything. But what the company is, what their values are, what the role is. Make it really clear what you actually want. Do not do jargon. No one understands it. It's very obvious. Don't do it. We hate it because it's like we just want to know exactly what you want us to do. And I think some employees feel like they have to over content. And it's like, no, we just, if it's a Excel spreadsheets, just say Excel spreadsheets. Don't say it's a vast range. No.
Melanie
MS office. It's actually Excel spreadsheets you're worried about.
Tania
There we go. So It's making it really clear, exactly, breaking it down into exactly what the role is. And then time frames, pay is always good. But basically making it open, putting yourself in that shoes and be like, as a prospective employee, what value is this job description? Do I find it easy to understand? So I think that's a really good thing to do. Put yourself in that shoes, do reverse. I think a really, really easy thing to do, which is really overlooked, is literally just having a statement at the bottom and just saying we're an inclusive employer. We accept applications from all abilities. Two sentences, guaranteed, will give you a higher range of employees and their skillset as well. Guaranteed. I would say internally, it's really important to just use the words, again, it's nothing to overthink, which I think a lot of people do, and I completely understand. But I think it's being that open minded as a leader and say, I've got an open door policy, I really value, or thank you so much for your hard work. And it's those little increments of acceptance to people. I think it's generally been on the website as well, saying we're an inclusive employer, we accept all applications on a career page, on the website itself, maybe have an accessibility statement as well and say we might not be WCAG 2.2 AA compliant, but we're working on it. So it's just...
Esther
What is that now? You just throw these letters at us.
Tania
So WCAG. So it is Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. And it's quite important. So this is basically the standard Web Accessibility Guideline that you need to hit. For example, making sure you have your H1s, your H2s, your H3s or your headings in different formats. It's making sure your buttons are going to the right place, the right links, the right format, e.g, not just saying, Click here, find out more about Marketing Reports 2025. It's about making sure your alt text is on your imagery. It's about making sure that it's all the right links, all the imagery, all the content is really easy to use. The user journey is really easy. So again, if you want the end goal for them to call you, make it easy. If you're doing job applications through your website, for instance, make sure it's within three to four clicks, not 10 clicks. And I know there's certain industries where it's like, but we need all that data. It's fine. But what you can do is break down the process. So instead of having a massive 10-page form, it's scary. I'm literally thinking about it as a neurodiversion. It's like, huh? But you can break down that process to make it a little bit more digestible and easier for people. And that's the type of thing that the Accessibility Guidelines is all about, is making sure everyone of all abilities can understand your website, can understand your social media, can understand your email marketing, can understand you on video, text, all these different platforms, all these different areas. The essential message is making sure everyone can understand your messaging and what you're trying to do and what you're trying to put out there, basically.
Melanie
I just wanted to clarify something, Tania. There is some, especially larger companies, who feel that they need to have a quota of people with certain abilities. I've met them, and they're saying they're actively seeking people of certain abilities. Is that true or did I just meet a unicorn?
Tania
I love unicorns. I wish they existed. But I think you are right. I think there are certain big companies, not that I can name any off the top of my head, so I do apologize.
Melanie
I won't name them either. It wouldn't be fair.
Tania
But they are out there. I do As someone that literally has disabilities, I'm not sure how I like the wording of certain things that these bigger companies do. I don't think it's accessible. I mean, it's almost adding to the stigma in my personal opinion. That's what I was thinking. Okay, so it's almost like ticking a box. It's like if you are fitting in this category, we want you. And it's like, well, hang on a minute. That's a stigma to people that actually aren't disabled, for starters. If they've got the higher skill set, why are they being pushed away for someone that wants to be in a tick box. And again, this is my personal opinion. With the work that I do as well, I just feel like people should be hired on their skill sets. And if they can do the work and if they can be an asset, if they've got neuro-spiciness, even better, you'll have a creative extraordinaire. And all the energy, as you can see on the screen here, this is where my ADHD really kicks in when I'm feeling safe and comfortable, really passionate. This is where all the good ideas come from.
So it is a strength. But again, I would hire someone based on their skill set, whether they can do the job effectively, which desirable skills that they've got, and not hiring someone just because they fit a category.
Melanie
I think it's a bit presumptive as well.
Tania
I agree.
Melanie
Just because you knew somebody who was autistic or had ADHD, who was really good at a certain area, doesn't mean the next person you meet who has a similar condition is going to be good at it as well. It's called a spectrum for a reason.
Tania
Exactly. There's a saying as well where it's like, you've met one autistic person, You've met one. It's everyone looks different with autism, everyone looks different with ADHD because everyone has different brains and everyone has different lives and life experiences. So again, when you've met one autistic person, you've just met one. You haven't met everyone. You just met one.
Esther
Yeah, and I think that's important to remember, too, that just as those that aren't on the spectrum, or maybe everybody's on the spectrum, but not to the same degrees as others.
Tania
Yeah, that's something to talk about very quickly as well. I mean, you can be really forgetful, but it doesn't mean you have ADHD. You can have light sensitivity It doesn't mean you've got autism. And this is where I think people are getting a little bit misconstrued with information. They think, oh, they're forgetful, so they've got a condition. And I mean, I-.
Melanie
Menopause.
Tania
Yeah. I'm 100% all good with self-diagnosis. If that's the thing you need to do for yourself, I 100 % support that because that's part of your journey. But what I will say is just because you've got one or two things doesn't mean you've got a disability. I just want to put that out there because I think it's really important to say. Sorry.
Esther
No, I completely agree. And I've seen a lot of people, there are people who have been diagnosed and I see it over social media where they're going, a person with ADHD will do this. And they're like, oh, and the comments are, oh, so I've got ADHD? Well, not necessarily. I mean, everybody forgets to take the washing out of the machine from time to time.
Melanie
If you haven't slept well, it makes you forgetful. If you don't eat well, it makes you forgetful.
Tania
Exactly.
Melanie
Let's wander back on topic here. So, when somebody approaches you, what would be the process of working with you? Is it a workshop? Is it something done in a day? Is it a custom-built box? Or is there a package that people you're going to buy?
Tania
So I need to break this down because with ADHD, there's different routes. So first side of the service is accessible marketing. This is more... It's like a technical service. So the first one is a website audit. It's a full website audit. We'll go into the content. We'll go into the SEO. We've introduced a little bit of AI accessibility in there as well because people are so starting to become more dependent on AI search. When you search something, the AI mode comes up, the AI overview comes up. More people are looking at this as the answer. So if you're not in that three to four answers, you're already losing engagement, you're already losing potential audience, you're losing money. So learning that scalability and bringing accessibility and AI hand in hand is super important. I digress. So website audits, full website audit. We go through the content, we go through the SEO, we go through the AI, we go through the user journey itself. If there's any technicalities missing, H1s, H2s, image alt text, we break it all down. So it's a full, it sounds cheesy, but roadmap into what you're doing well, what needs fixing, what will give you WCAG 2.2 AA compliance.
Melanie
She's adding numbers now.
Tania
It's just that these things are getting longer. But it's a real technical breakdown. We offer some developer assistance as well for the really nitty-gritty technical stuff. And then we do accessible marketing workshops. So we get hired by companies of all sizes to basically come in, do a workshop, and we teach them what accessible marketing is, what it looks like. We teach them WCAG 2.2 AA, and we basically teach you how to do what we do. So that's a two hour workshop.
Melanie
So you're training the people. So that's good. You're empowering them to do it themselves.
Tania
Yeah. And it's tailored. So what we do is we have a discovery call. We ask a bunch of questions, we bond, and it's tailored to their industry and their business itself. So we'll talk about potential campaigns that are coming into fruition that we can assess on the day or pass campaigns so they can understand what could have been improved, etc. So it's really, really fun. They're very interactive. So we do polls, we do group discussions, we do little like webinars as well. So everyone talks to each other. It's very collaborative. So that's the accessible marketing side. We then have neurodiversity training, which is workshops again, and they're also interactive. So we teach everyone about the spectrum, the history of it, why it matters, the business case of neurodiversity, so why it's important in business, communication preferences. We go into hiring practices. We go into a bit of legal and compliance as well. So the Equality Act, The European Accessibility Act that came into 28th of June this year. And we're going to some other nice legal nitty-gritty stuff as well. And they're tailored as well. So again, it's looking at the industry, looking at the business. So for example, if it's a hospitality company we're working with, we'll have that understanding of front of house staff, office staff, management, the different roles tools that are implemented, the different experiences people have, how obviously front of house is very quick, so they have limited time on training. How can we train them? One of the good things is bite size eLearning, so they can tick it off. We can introduce ambassadors in restaurants as well. We can in the office make sure that they've got workshops, so not everyone needs to be in them because they can pass the information on. So it's very tailored to the industry, the company itself, what they're doing now, what they're going to do next. And yeah, it's been really busy. But good. It's been good.
Melanie
So not done in a day then, huh?
Tania
Well, this is the thing. So a lot of them are 2-3 hour workshops, but then you can have more if you wanted to. So I always make it tailored. So if you want to do an accessible marketing workshop or a neurodiversity training, we can do it in two to four hours because it's so interactive. You learn a lot, but you're also bonding with the team. You're learning more about other teams and what they're doing. And then you're also learning about compliance and neurodiversity as well. So it sounds like a lot, but on the day everyone has said it's passed really quickly and they've learned a lot. Their brains have hurt, but in a good way, which I always take as a compliment. But yeah, it's obviously neurodiversity, accessibility is an ongoing journey. So I also teach how not everything everyone's learnt today is going to be done in a day, but they're very action-packed. So guarantee need people will be able to action things on that day, that week, that year. And that's really important to say that it is a journey. It's not a destination. It's a long term relationship with accessibility, with society as well. Society is waking up a little bit more, which is really nice. So, yeah, it's a journey. We're very busy, but in a good way. So hopefully I'd like to be even more busy and help more people.
Esther
Wow. With all of that that you offer, no wonder you won Digital Woman of the Year recently with digital market, sorry, with digital women and Lucy Hall and the awards in London. You're a wonder woman with all of that that you can offer and provide and help people with. What's the best place that people can go and find you then, Tania?
Tania
Absolutely. So we're very active on LinkedIn. It's on purpose because with ADHD, you want to be everywhere. You want to be on Instagram and Twitter and all that jazz. But I'm working with my brain, not against it. So LinkedIn is Tania, T-A-N-I-A, Gerard, G-E-R-A-R-D. And then it has neurodiversity. But if you type in my name, you'll probably find my cute little face. And then the website is www.taniagerard.co.uk And we're also com as well for our US clients. So yeah.
Melanie
International.
Tania
Just a bit. I'm very tired. All right.
Esther
Well, it's been wonderful to have you here with us today, Tania, and I hope people will reach out to you, even if it's just a, hi, thanks. I've been struggling with it. You made it all so much clearer. Still wondering about all these letters and numbers that you threw at us, but we will put them in the show notes.
Melanie
Not for dyslexics.
Esther
There has to be accessibility for them as well. I mean, it's all... But we've had so much fun here with you today, Tania. You just exude energy and smiling and happiness and everything. It's just been wonderful. Thank you.
Tania
Thank you. It's become a real purpose, and it's been an absolute honor to talk to you. I've followed you for a long time, and I was not suprised at all when you hit your 300th episode last week, and I was like, yes.
Esther
Thank you.
Melanie
Cool. Thanks. Well, we should really sign off now. It's been exhausting, but a pleasure. We will be back next week. We'll be back next week with another episode. And please make sure you share our posts when you see them, answer our questions when you see them, and visit our Etsy store. Because although we are giving away a T-shirt soon, you can buy one as well. Okay, bye for now.
Esther
Bye. Seriously, though, do you sleep?
Tania
Not really.
Melanie
Do you drink chamomile and relaxing tease, and do they work?
Tania
When I remember. Yeah, just high on life. No, I mean, I've spoke about it before, but when I stopped my career, I did not look like this, to be honest with you. It was the complete opposite. I was-.
Melanie
You look so happy, though.
Tania
It's been a real purpose. So deep dark depression. There was times where I wouldn't get out of the house for weeks at a time, to be honest with you. It's basically a hermit. So I always say it's a deep well. So anyone who's been through depression and trigger warning suicidal thoughts, it is not an easy journey to want life again. And you have to crawl out of that well and find... And you really have to hit the bottom and just be like, okay, I'm going to stay. What do I do? What do I do about it? You can't go any lower either, so it's really helpful.
Melanie
You hit rock bottom.
Tania
Hit rock bottom. So yeah, and then It's just been a journey and now, I'm just incredibly grateful for what I do. And it's the... Excuse my friend. It's been a real journey. And helping a lot of people, hearing people as well saying, oh, the thing I hear the most is, I didn't think about it that way, but now I am and I'm really grateful for it. And that's the paraphrasing, but that's the line I get a lot. So, yeah, it's been incredible, it is made me want to be here. So, yeah.
